Making Every Job a Climate Job with Sanders Lazier
Sanders Lazier, CEO and co-founder of Carbonhound, shares his journey from traditional finance to climate tech entrepreneurship. Driven by the thought of his son one day asking what he did during this crucial period of climate crisis, Sanders created a tool to help businesses of all sizes measure, track, and profit from reducing their carbon emissions.
The conversation explores how climate reporting is rapidly evolving from a nice-to-have into a crucial business requirement, particularly as regulations tighten in major markets like California and the EU. Sanders breaks down complex concepts like scope emissions into digestible explanations and shares real-world examples of companies turning climate action into competitive advantage, including a fascinating case study of a Montreal-based graphite company that transformed its business model through sustainable practices.
Topics Discussed:
Sanders' personal journey into climate tech entrepreneurship
Explanation of Scope 1, 2, and 3 emissions and why they matter
How regulations in California and the EU are driving climate reporting requirements
The "champagne tower" effect of regulatory pressure on businesses
Why carbon credits might be a red herring for many businesses
Case study of Mont Graphite's success through sustainable practices
The future of climate reporting as a competitive differentiator
Personal observations of climate change impacts in Canada
How businesses can profit from reducing emissions
The transformation of traditional roles into climate action platforms
Links:
Episode Transcript:
Sanders Lazier (00:00):
Watching people transform themselves and look at how they can transform their job into a platform for climate action. That's really, really cool. Helping our clients understand how to approach these problems in a practical way and really make that impact, that's the most exciting thing.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (00:24):
Hello everyone and welcome to We Are Not Doomed. On this show, we bring you interviews with industry leaders, authors, journalists, and real people who are making an impact on climate change. Every day We Are Not Doomed is produced by Puddle Creative, a full service podcast production company. I'm Jonah Gil-Neufeld, the executive producer. Today I'm excited to bring you an interview with Sanders Lazier. Sanders is the co-founder and CEO of Carbonhound, a tool that helps businesses measure, track and reduce their carbon emissions. It's an easy way for companies to understand their environmental impact by calculating their greenhouse gas emissions. I talked to Sanders about his career journey that led him to founding this company and also if you are at a company that is just starting this work, kind of laying the groundwork, what does it mean by scope one, two, and three emissions, some use cases from their customers, and some ways that companies are now not just reporting on their climate impact, reducing their climate impact, but profiting from their reduced climate impact. It was a really informative interview and I hope you enjoy it. Here it is.
(01:32):
Sanders, thanks for being on We Are Not doomed. Welcome to the podcast.
Sanders Lazier (01:41):
Thank you so much, Jonah. I appreciate you inviting me.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (01:43):
Before we talk about Carbonhound and what you guys do, take me back to sort of how you got started in, how did you even decide that you wanted to do this and then maybe the story of how you started Carbonhound.
Sanders Lazier (01:57):
It's funny, so I've been involved in green initiatives my entire career from the time when I was a summer student at a bank all the way up until my last job and this job obviously, but I would say we're really started to matter to me was just seeing the changes in the environment and seeing the impact that it was having, reading more and more about it in the news, watching newspapers hire entire teams of staff to cover the problem and the impacts of it. And so when I was at my last company, octopus Investments, we were getting reams and reams of paperwork every week to process applications for financial products. It's absolutely wild to me. In some cases we had checks worth millions of dollars sitting on the side of the desk and we wanted to digitize that channel from distribution perspective. And so I was trying to think of different ways, how do we create opportunities for people to do good and also do well?
(02:59):
So working with them and saying, okay, well for every application you do online because you're working with financial advisors, instead of sending it to us by mail, we'll plant a tree for you. So that's where the very beginning of the intersection of technology and climate started for me. And then I went back home to Canada, so I was living in the UK at the time, came back home, got married, started thinking about having a family and starting my own business, and I had this image that just got stuck in my head of my son sitting there at the age of 14 reading a textbook about this period in time. That's how critical I feel like it's, and looking back at me and asking, Hey Dad, what were you doing during this time and how are you impacting this? And every morning and every night, I'm reminded by that every time I see him now.
(03:53):
And that's what really made me think that I needed to do something in the climate space and I have no formal training. I went and got that. Soon after starting Carbonhound, I went and did a night class at U Oft and University of Toronto and started to learn more about it, but I just knew that it was a problem. I wanted to, and I was actually trying to start a completely different business where it was trying to figure how to buy real estate and then decarbonize it and then sell it to large mutual funds and large institutional investors who wanted lower carbon assets. But it was really hard to work through all the three and four letter acronyms to get a better understanding of what does good look like and how do I get there and how much is it going to cost me and how do I do it with credibility? I never forget, I had a list of 42 different companies that were addressing different parts of that problem area,
(04:58):
But at the end of the day, there really wasn't anything designed. There was spreadsheets, which is nonprofit resources, and then there were solutions designed for experts. And I frankly got a little bit upset and thought to myself, well, as we well know, we live in a very polarized society right now where every single issue becomes a issue. And if we've got half the population of works in small medium businesses who can't afford to have a dedicated person or team to think about this problem of how we address climate change in their business, then with all the regulations that are coming through, there's going to be a lot of haves and have nots. And we have to look at it in terms of an ecosystem approach where the rising tide is bringing up all the ships rather than leaving a whole 50% of the population behind in terms of working at businesses that can't afford to those investments because they don't have the expertise or capital. And so leading into your original question, Jonah, that's really what drove me to start Carbonhound, which is how do we empower businesses of all sizes to be able to understand and reduce and do their part to address climate change because it does impact everybody and how do we help them profit from the action that they're taking? And so that's the mission that we've been on at Carbonhound over the last few years.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (06:29):
Awesome. Well, and that transitions greatly, into kind of what is Carbonhound and what you guys do.
Sanders Lazier (06:36):
Yeah, well, it's really simple. So first, if you don't mind, Jonah, I'm just going to set the scene a little bit because I think what people don't realize is that there's a whole conversation right now, anti movement, anti sg greenwashing. There's a lot of conversation out there, and I think what's getting lost in that is that there's actually a lot of great climate action that's happening elsewhere, thinking North American as a context. You look at the Canadian financial system, they're being regulated pretty heavily around this. That obviously drives the entire economy here. You look at California regulations, they're requiring anybody over a billion dollars in revenue. If you want to do business in California, you have to dispose not only the emissions of your company but your supply chain. And then same thing in Europe where you've got 50, 60,000 companies that are being regulated there for their supply chains as well.
(07:32):
And even to the point where if you want to import more than 50 worth of goods that are on this list, which are predominantly high carbon products like steel and metal, just $150, you have to disclose that and report to the EU government the emissions from that import. So imagine being one of those businesses who isn't a multinational and you're getting these requests from anyone, all your customers. It could be your largest customers, could be the Walmarts of the world, it could be who have a project Gigaton, or it could be Microsoft who's requiring these disclosures. So what we do is we help all of these midsize companies who are getting requests from all of their most important customers, and they're being asked in slightly different ways. And what we do is we act as that skeleton key to be able to respond to all of those requests with integrity.
(08:28):
And we do that by heavily automating all the data collection to make it really simple to have high integrity reporting that you can share with your different stakeholders because we've found that data is actually a huge barrier in terms of measuring for climate to the point where only 3% of our clients were getting through that stage to the reduction steps. And now after looking at how we can reduce the barriers in the data side where that number's up to 45% and we'll continue to increase. So I think there's a lot of hidden barriers to climate action that people don't necessarily see. And there's also hidden motivators and opportunities that I feel like are not being talked about as well. And so we help clients address both of those.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (09:15):
Yeah, that's awesome. So taking it from the perspective of one of your customers, so let's say I'm the CEO of a mid-size company. We don't have anybody on the staff who's a climate expert or a sustainability expert, but our biggest client just said, Hey, we need climate reporting from you guys, and maybe I'm new to the whole field. So maybe even just explain what is scope one, scope two and scope three emissions, what do those terms even mean, and then how do you start to measure those?
Sanders Lazier (09:51):
Yeah, so I think the first thing that happens when we talk to clients like that is panic
(09:58):
Because they're looking, I know one customer we had through, they won the RFP and they're going through the procurement process and they're asked for this data and they couldn't close the deal without it. So yeah, it impacts companies. This is a 50 person company. It impacts companies of all sizes. So basically the first thing that people will look at is what's called, so there's three scopes of emissions, and there's this standard called the Greenhouse Gas Protocol, often referred to as the GHG protocol. And that's an international standard that's been developed by the World Resource Institute. And if you understand the Dreamhouse gas protocol, then you've got a really good grasp of what every single regulatory environment is based off of. Because what they do is they basically take pieces of that and said, okay, you need this piece, this piece, and this piece, and then maybe some other bits.
(10:52):
But from a quantification perspective, the G HG protocol, I think 99% of businesses use it like this is the way that you measure emissions. And it's all supposed to be science-based, right? But it's more of a methodology. So they have three different components to your footprint, right? Scope one, scope two, scope three. There's also some people call 'em scope four, there's some other pieces that aren't included, and I'll get to those in a second. But in terms of the basics, scope one and two is basically the operations of your business. So thinking about what's in the four walls. So scope one is anything that you own that's burning or combusting some sort of fuel on site or offsite. If it's the case that let's say you own your delivery vehicles, so if I was a transportation company as far as delivering goods to my product, my customers, all of that would be included in my scope one.
(11:46):
So maybe my wood fuel, if I was on, dunno, maybe if I'm a and of crushers on site or I've got some forklifts that are driving around all of that stuff with conclusion scope one. So the things you can see, the things that you operate that you have control over. Scope two is similar except that it's anything that you're plugging into the wall. So it's called imported energy. So typically this is electricity is the most common use case. And the reason why it's separated out is because you're not generating that energy on site, you're actually importing it from your electricity grid. And depending on where you are, you can look out west in California, it's a bit cleaner. You look at Texas dirtier, the type of fuel that's being used, West Virginia would be dirtier of course. So looking at the type of fuel that's being combusted in order to create the energy for your electricity obviously has a huge impact on your emissions as well.
(12:48):
So when we look at regulations in general, the bare minimum is that you quantify your scope one and two emissions because that's really what you have full control over. Scope three emissions is where gets really interesting. So there's 15 different categories according to GHG protocol that you can include in scope three, everything from purchase goods and services, so anything you're spending money on basically to the use of your goods. So the shell of the world would want to include that one obviously, because that would be absolutely gigantic. So that's why they're called out for greenwashing because they weren't accounting for the use of their products as part of their ads. And then to things like finance emissions. So banks, if I'm lending you money to build a oil rig, then based on the percentage of that oil rig that the bank owns, they need to take accountability for the emissions of that asset that they're financing.
(13:50):
Same thing for insurance. So you can really see how scope three can get really complicated, but it's also really important because it makes up the vast majority of your emissions north of 95% in many cases. And so when you're looking at all these different reports and you're seeing scope one, scope two versus scope three, you can start to understand the challenges around gathering Scope three. Because if I'm looking at everything I bought, that means I need to go to all of my suppliers and figure out what they call carbon intensity is of those goods. So it's made of metal, where is that metal from? Is it Chinese metal that's made with coal power or is it maybe some sort of green steel from the us? So understanding and going into that supply chain to try to figure out what the emissions are can be quite complicated, time consuming and difficult to get complete comparable data. And so when you're listening and you're hearing people talk about scope and two, that's generally a bit more scope three is where things get much more messy. And easy way to think about it is that your scope one and two as a company is somebody else's scope three who's buying your stuff.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (15:02):
That's what I was just going to ask you about. It's sort of like it's this cascade or web of you are somebody else's scope, scope three. Yeah, exactly. And all down, yeah, it just cascades,
Sanders Lazier (15:15):
But it's really important that we calculate scope three because a lot of people might say, oh, it's double counting, right? But it's really important to calculate that because what we saw when in situations where companies weren't calculating Scope three is that they would actually just take their dirtiest assets and just sell them or put them in a separate, and then that would disappear into Scope three land and sudden their scope one and two emissions were looking much nicer, not to mention the massive impact that the spend that governments and corporates have trillions and trillions of dollars of spend, the influence that you can have by wielding that and attaching let's say a green procurement strategies against that. That's really the only way that we're going to see system wide pushes towards decarbonization, in my opinion.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (16:08):
Yeah. So then two other things jumped out at me when you were explaining it. So I feel like the first step, which is a huge step, is a company comes on board and they try to do climate reporting, they try to track their emissions, and then maybe the next step from that is reducing their emissions. So how do you guys help with that?
Sanders Lazier (16:32):
Yeah, so just to build the first point, I'd say measurement isn't an all or nothing thing. So I don't want to scare people away because what's important is that you start and then you identify where the gaps might be in your reporting, and then you're improving that over time. You just want to be transparent about what you're and aren't doing as part of that process. But at the end of the day, the best step you could take is just any step. But in terms of the reduction slide, that's where it gets really interesting because it can be incredibly dependent on the context. So for food manufacturing for example, there's actually companies that specialize in how do we create a net zero food manufacturing facility? So there's one company called Envir Stewards who specializes in this, and they'll take a systems level approach and look at that particular facility and said, okay, there's a massive amount of heat loss here.
(17:22):
How can we reuse this heat in a different part of that manufacturing process in order to reduce the overall energy requirements that we have for that particular product or good. So to do deep decarbonization work does require an investment and a thought process around how do we actually do this while still delivering our product to our customers? But what we can help with and what we're software I think can be really good is a tracking the impact of all that work that you're doing to make sure it's actually having the impact that you hope B, potentially helping you be in a better position to access maybe green financing and expand the amount of capital that you can get access to, do these sorts of projects and C, help you benchmark yourself against your peers so that you can get an understanding of, okay, we're using way more energy than our competitors. Or if you look at the energy intensity or CO2 intensity, so per unit of production, how do we compare to our peers and understand how far ahead or maybe behind you are and start to look at where the tangible emissions are in your own footprint and use that as a hotspot analysis to figure out, okay, cool here, this is the place that we should focus on because it's the highest leverage opportunity for us to reduce our emissions and make an impact on that number.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (18:43):
Yeah. One thing you also touched on is once you're starting to reduce your emissions, then there's profiting from the reduction of that emissions and maybe have some use cases or just an example of how companies are doing that.
Sanders Lazier (19:00):
Yeah, it's really interesting. So there's a company called Mont Graphite, which is really interesting. They're out of just their small company, no one probably know of them. They're north of Montreal. And what they realized was that the entire market for graphite is dominated by China in terms of the volume, but graphite's important for a lot of electronics. It's an important part of that OEM ecosystem. And so they realized they couldn't compete on price. So what they did is they partnered with Caterpillar and they partnered with other service providers, and they created basically an electrified mine so that the carbon intensity of the products that they were producing from there were much, much, much lower. And even though they were going to pay more for it, there was an environmental benefit that was being baked into that cost. And so all of a sudden, I think they signed a couple big deals, one of them with Panasonic as an example, and so now that's become core to their business offering.
(20:05):
And so I think that's an example that we're starting to see more and more of is you look at governments are attaching more and more green procurement elements to their procurement policies, and so there's more and more points that are being allocated for sustainable benefits of the products that they're buying. But at the same time, there's also more scrutiny around those claims. And so that's why it's really important to understand and have the evidence behind making those claims. So that's a good balance that we need to strike, but we see it all the time. I think one track that a lot of companies fall into is everyone's talking about carbon credits and everyone thinks, oh, if we reduce our emissions, we can go and sell those as carbon credits to somebody else who's trying to get to net zero. And what's funny is that that's often a red herring because you're looking at six figures to develop that project, and you don't know who the buyer's going to be and you dunno what the market's going to look like.
(21:01):
And so we've been really encouraging our clients to do is stop worrying about offsets, just lower the carbon intensity of the products that you're already selling and sell more of what you're selling already to clients that you already know and trust or new clients who are valuing the environmental aspect of the product. Because as soon as you start selling those offsets, you sell the environmental benefit with that. So all of a sudden you weakened your core business. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that from a business perspective, think about the environmental benefit of your product in the context of your business and what you're selling rather than trying to create an entirely different company to sell benefits of your products.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (21:46):
And speaking of, as you said, more and more governments and other organizations are using green procurement in their businesses. What have you seen change in the industry since you've been doing Carbonhound and what do you see as the future of in the next few years, what this space is going to look like?
Sanders Lazier (22:06):
I think we are just doing some addressable market stuff now. So I think if you were to look at the number of companies impacted now versus in three years, it's going to be orders of magnitude larger. So think about in three, four years, let's say any company who basically wants to do business in the EU who's selling anything with any metal net, we had a company that does syringes. You know what I mean? That's how little metal is required to meet the requirements there. It just has to be 50 worth. So I think what's going to the future as I see it, is that companies are going to have, they're going to sell the quality, they're going to sell the price, and they're going to sell the environmental benefits of their products, and there's going to be three legs to that stool. And I think in three years, I think what's going to happen is that all these companies are going to realize that they have to start reporting in order to continue to service their customer base or else they're going to see significant risk of churn within because there are penalties for not meeting these requirements in the jurisdictions.
(23:12):
So I think if you ask me in three years, it's going to be measuring at that stage. If you ask me in five to 10 years, it's going to be a competitive differentiator. It's going to be a contingency for financing just for any business who wants to get any financing going to have to understand these risks because banks are increasingly looking at climate risk as financial risk. And so I think what we're seeing already is that especially looking at somewhere like Florida, certain areas are becoming uninsurable. You're seeing the government have to step in. And so any bank is going to be concerned about that as well. And any insurance company is going to be worried about that too. So I think we can't put our head in the sands here. We need to understand what these climate risks are. And I think consequently, a lot of businesses are going to be starting to look at what the opportunities are to increase the revenue base as a result of these big shifts in how companies are looking at their products and services.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (24:15):
Yeah. And have you seen that shift? Was there any sort of watershed moment or has it really been just this accelerated gradual move towards this?
Sanders Lazier (24:27):
Yeah, I think it's been slower than anyone in the industry would want for sure. But I think what I'm learning is that if you think about environmental action as a champagne tower, at the top of that champagne tower pouring the champagne is that regulatory pressure. And then everybody, it gets slowly cascades down to everybody. So I think we're living in the future, it's just not here yet, if that makes sense, Europe, way more advanced than where we are here in North America as it relates to these sorts of things. But I think fundamentally it's going to be regulation that ends up pushing it and starts to create that new normal for businesses.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (25:10):
Yeah, that's a great, I feel like your answer before too is just a great catalyst for companies that are maybe on the outside looking into this to say, oh, in three year, if I'm looking ahead three to five years, I need to start looking at this now and starting to understand it and doing it because it is going to be a competitive differentiator in the future. And if you're not doing it, then you'll be left behind
Sanders Lazier (25:34):
And then the banks are going to look at your customer base and say, Hey, you've got some significant risk here if you don't do something. So I think it'll genuinely impact almost all operating businesses in some way.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (25:49):
So let's take a step back, and you answered this a little bit before talking about your son, but why do you care about climate change as a person?
Sanders Lazier (25:57):
I've been really lucky in my life. I've traveled a lot, probably more than I shoulda when I was younger. I've spent a lot of time camping. I spent time north of the Arctic Circle. It's, I've gotten so much from the environment, and I think that for me, what does that look like for the next generation? I think I grew up, maybe it's a camp motto, but you leave the campsite better than you found it. And I just feel like that we as a society just haven't done that. I think we've, in many social ways, we have, I think from an environmental perspective, there's definitely been some improvements. There's not as much smog in major cities now because of the EPA standards around fuel usage. That's all been really positive. But if you look at the gross tonnage of emissions over time, I think we've taken for granted the environment a bit too much, and we traded it for profit, and we need to do a better job of figuring out how to account for the environment as we build our systems moving forward as it relates to taxation, as it relates to just good governance of a healthy capitalist system.
(27:11):
And so for me, thinking about everything I've gotten from it, thinking about my background in business, what I really wanted to do is figure out how to connect those two together to show that businesses don't just have, they can do good and do well, right? And it doesn't need to be a trade off. And as companies grow, they can have more impact on sustainable capitalism and show that there is a path forward. And you've got some great examples in the us. Patagonia is a really good one.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (27:42):
How has climate change affected your life already? I think it's something that, I've talked to guests on the show that maybe five, 10 years ago, people were thinking of it as either something that was affecting the ice caps or affecting the polar bears. But now I feel like everyone, even in the developed world, Europe and North America has a story about climate change affecting their life.
Sanders Lazier (28:08):
It's funny because ironically, I feel like especially parts of Canada, especially in the US where we're in many ways, we're incredibly isolated from the impacts of it, and in some cases beneficiaries because the growing seasons are longer, but then there's all this extreme weather that disrupts that. But more importantly, I think you're right, it impacts everyone's lives. I just thinking from a positive perspective, I've been able to bike to work for 50 out of 52 weeks of the year in Toronto, Canada. That is wild and incredibly concerning without any special gear, just like a regular biking with a hat and some winter clothes. From my perspective, I think that's been the shocking thing to me. It used to be that that would be probably closer to 40 weeks a year. And so I think that's been a significant impact. And then I think also you start to see a lot more in terms of disease and in terms of wildlife and sorts of other things are starting to migrate north that we never had to worry about before. And so I think we're just at the tip of it. And the scariest thing is this, watching the wildlife disappear in terms of fewer and fewer habitats for any number of animals, animals, and insect populations going down. I mean, all this stuff that's pretty critical to life as we see it and as we know it, it's scary.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (29:41):
Yeah, totally. I was just thinking right before this interview, in fact, an hour before this interview, my power went out. I'm working from home today, and it's going to be 97 Fahrenheit. 36 Celsius is the high today in Portland, which is something that I didn't grow up in Portland, but probably 10, 15 years ago, that didn't happen very much. And now we get many days during the summer where it gets up to that level and it's just like, oh, am I going to be able to do this interview because the power's out? And luckily it came back on quickly. But I think even just that little thing, those little things are happening with more frequency than they used to in our lives
Sanders Lazier (30:22):
Completely - this morning. Again, extreme weather is predominantly tied to climate change, right? More climate change, the more extreme weather there is, the amount of rain we've gotten just over the last 24 hours here, subway stations are getting shut down. We're just not equipped to deal with these massive swings. I think it used to be that you could get away with not having air conditioning in your house in Toronto, and that's really just, you kind of have to have it now because it gets hot enough for long enough that it's a health hazard. And not only that, you have to deal with, you have to create a system that can go from 10 degrees to 35 degrees Celsius over the course of 24 hours, and that actually fundamentally changes the heating systems that you can use. So looking at thermal and hot water heating, they like constant temperatures. So these swings make it really difficult for those systems to function efficiently.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (31:13):
Yeah. So thank you so much for taking this time, Sanders, and thank you for the work that you and Carbonhound are doing. I do want to end on an optimistic note. So my last question to you is what makes you feel hopeful for the future? I'm sure doing the work that you do, there's actually probably plenty of things that make you feel hopeful, but when you get out of bed in the morning, what keeps you going?
Sanders Lazier (31:37):
Oh, man. I think it's just really cool watching our clients work on this problem themselves and watching. I think what really inspires me is looking at people that have been in their roles for, there's one client particular I'm thinking of. He's been doing this job for 40 years, and he hasn't been in sustainability four years. He was in Environmental Health Services Environmental, eh hs, and he was interested in this and he learned and he trained, and now he we're working with him. And it's become a new lease on life for him. And watching people transform themselves and look at how they can transform their job into a platform for climate action, that's really, really cool because the amount of leverage that you get from your job and the impact that you can have, the amount of waste that they've avoided, the amount of cooling and the energy that they've avoid using the impacts are really huge. And in some cases very tangible and physical. And I think helping our clients understand how to approach these problems in a practical way and really make that impact, but more importantly, seeing the transformation of these individuals that are working with us, that's the most exciting because it feels like you start to create this multiplier effect. And I think we need more of that. Let's use virality for good and see how we can really push everyone to think of their role as a climate role
(33:13):
And give people the tools to be able to execute on solving a critical problem that we're all facing right now.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (33:20):
Oh, that's a great answer. And really inspiring to, I think one of the key demographics that I want this show to go out to is people who want to get into the climate field. But I think shifting that perspective in saying, well, how can I make whatever role I'm currently in a climate job?
Sanders Lazier (33:40):
Exactly.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (33:41):
Well, thank you so much, Sanders. Thanks for being on. We are not doomed and taking the time today.
Sanders Lazier (33:45):
No problem. Thank you so much. And yeah, we aren't doomed. I don't think.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (33:49):
I don't so either. Thank you.
Sanders Lazier (33:52):
Thanks, Jonah.
Jonah Geil-Neufeld (33:56):
Thanks to Sanders for being on the show, and thank you for listening to We Are Not Doomed. I'm Jonah Geil-Neufeld with Puddle Creative. To find more episodes of the podcast, go to We Are Not doomed.com. You can find us on Spotify, apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast app. Until next time, have a great week.